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[paintubturner]

I need advice PLEASE.  On Tuesday my 22 month old stafforshire terrier killed my 14 yr old corgi. Ollie-corgie-was a part of my life for 13 yrs and never ever showed agression towards anyone or anything. But out of my 3 dogs he was the alpha dog. Gypsy-staffy terrier-was always trying to get in his face and on occasion Ollie would would snarl at her and Gypsy would run away but nothing ever more than that. I am so hurt and confused about all of this.  I took Gypsy to kindergarden and 1st grade dog obedience at a young age-spayed her at 6 months old-socialized her-I dont know where I went wrong! If I honestly EVER thought that Gypsy could do this I would have never allowed the dogs to be together. My poor blind Gunner was a witness to everything and lost his faithful buddy. I have been only allowing Gypsy and Gunner short amounts of time together in the house loose and supervised. Gunner wants nothing at all to do with her now-his body language towards her has completely changed. How do I know if she will do this again? And what are the odds that she will? I really need help with this because I have an appt to euthanize Gypsy this afternoon and I just cant seem to know whether that is the right thing to do. I also have kids at my house most wknds playing with my other animals and what if it were to be a child! It makes me feel bad that by Gypsy taking a life I have to then take hers but last night I said something to my mom that really made me think about all of this...my mom asked me what I would do if Gypsy would have killed Gunner...I told her Gypsy would have been put down that night. Then I realized...why is Ollies life worth less than Gunners life? Ollie devoted 13 yrs to me by being the absolute watch dog he could be-kept rodents out of my yard-chased stray cats away-was never any trouble and most of all was Gunners eyes when he lost his eye sight-Ollie life was worth no less than Gunners I just have a different bond with Gunner. This is so hard-I am sick to my stomach-cant eat-and cant even cry anymore because I am so dehydrated from crying non stop the past couple of days. My heart aches for what has already happened and for what the future may hold. I explained to Gypsy last night what she did was wrong and what may happen to her today. She is not a bad dog but she is now a dog that I dont know who she is-she broke our trust in a serious way-she wasnt raised this way-I still love her and if I do go thru with the euthanisia she wont die alone. Why does this have to be sooooo hard and hurt sooooo bad.            

[ZoethePug]

I am so sorry for the loss of your Corgi!  That is so terribly sad and I understand you are facing a difficult decision.  I think before you decide to put your dog down you might want to explore other options...  Perhaps placing the dog into a home that does not have any other animals or children...  Or maybe contact a rescue group and ask them what others have done in situations like this.  Even if you decide to put your dog down you will know you have considered everything.  (I'm not saying it's wrong to put the dog down - if I was in your situation, I have no idea what I would do...)

You'll be in my thoughts!

Wendy

[Cathy, Bailey and Duke]

I don't have any real advice. I just wanted to say how sorry I am! I feel so bad for you!! ((HUGS)))!

[evayola]

I sent you a private message. I am so sorry.

Eva

[paintubturner]

where do i find my private message-there isnt anything in my box.  thanks so much to all of you.

[evayola]

I hope you found it.

[paintubturner]

I found it and thank you so much.

[mhitesman]

OMG.  This is horrible for you and your family.  I am so sorry for your loss and incredible pain.  Anything you do at this point will be the right decision as it comes from the right place in your heart...but your head probably needs to make the call on this one.  I support whatever decision (or not) you make, and I have no idea what I would do in your situation.  Best wishes coming your way, and you remain in my thoughts.

[Kash-]

It's pretty hard to give some advice based on a few paragraphs, no matter how descriptive they are.  You were there (I'm guessing) and you know their personalities better than we can ever know them through your words.  Despite us not knowing the situation completely, I do see the basics of your situation.

1) can you trust your am-staff around other dogs anymore, much less around children?
 
2) can you keep an untrustworthy dog in "solitary" and/or is it right?

I can't give you the right answer, you'll have to figure it out according to your rules and observations, But to make some heavy handed generalities (that are almost worthless) might help a little, if nothing else than another perspective.

1) Am-Staff's (super generalized over stereotypical comment coming) have been known to be dog aggressive Partly do to their breeding (I don't believe that breeding alone MAKES dog behavior, But pointers point without being taught to, retrievers love to retrieve without much training and aggression can be a behavior much like pointing, flushing, herding...) But on the other hand, Am-Staff's are just as often known to be super human-loyal and great defenders of children.  I wouldn't stake a child's life on an over generalization like that, but it's worth saying on behalf of the breed.

2) If you were present during the attack, I wonder just what set it off?  That's what I really really wonder.  Why now, after many years did this happen?  Was it a situational thing?  Were there stress' lately that might have caused your Am-Staff to act out?

You've set your mind on a solution that I too would consider given what you said.  Most dog bite victims are victims of dogs that have been known biters.  Rare is the dog that bites once and then never again.  So, I understand and even ///gulp///  admire you for having the balls to consider doing what you're considering.  I hate to admit it, but I'd probably be one of the morons without enough guts to do it.

So, consider this;  As an alternative, do you have the time, energy, ambition and resources to effectively enter a course of corrective behavior modification for Gypsy?  Do you think that you can pursue an effective training regime to fix this behavior?  I don't think it's impossible to correct this type of behavior, it's probably harder to do than your alternative is.  And, ultimately, failure to re-train Gypsy or failure to correctly re-train Gypsy has potentially dire, or fatal consequences.  whereas your solution is 100% effective in ensuring no further aggressive behavior.

Good luck.  If I can help please let me know.  I've done a little dog training and I could point you in the right direction if you decide to go that route.

[Wilson3]

I am so sorry for your loose of Ollie...
Please do not blame yourself from the 7 yrs of working with rescues dogs you see this kind of stuff happen. It is more common then I thought it would be.
when you live with 3 or more dogs you have a pack. Sometimes they take things a bit to far sometimes buy mistake not knowing there own strength they have and sometime they mean it. We really do not know.Gypsy being 22 months she is entering the adult stage and being a  female she wants to rule. (people always believe it is the males that are the boss but it is really the females that run the pack make the decisions of how things are run. The males protect the territory) Between the ages 2 and 3 (for some breeds it is up till the age 4) they really become the adult dog you see them become more protective of the home and a bit bossy and will challenge the own for the top spot.
In the dog rescue world a dog that has killed another dog can never be trusted once they have killed they will do it again. With training and the owner always being 10 steps ahead of the dog and always very watchful never letting the dog alone with other dogs /animals and yes kids even adults. They will  look for a weak link and take advantage of it.
There can be many years without it happening you begin to forget a bit and the dog will know this and will strike again. I know many people that have taken in dogs that have done this and they always try again it can be a month of yrs. but they will do it again.
Some dogs are just born that way nothing we do or did can change that they will always be a risk to own. Not saying that people cannot own dogs like this and live happy lives but you always have to be very watchful and us caution .Most rescues will not even touch a dog that has a know history for biting much less killing another dog. To many risks.

Gunner like all our balsto babies are held very close too the owners heart the trust and bond that forms when we care for them when they are very ill is something only we all know to well others do not understand that bond I never planned for Wilson to be my favorite always wanted to treat them equal and I do but that special place in my heart is held for him we saw them almost die and fight so hard to live we do everything we can for them and they understand that they feel our pain we feel for them the pain in our heart that to is way Gunner is stay away from Gypsy he know it was wrong and feels your pain and he does not like the pain you are feeling.
It has to be horrible to have seen what happen and to now figure out what you should do next. Go with your heart it will always guide you in the right direction.
wilson3

[paintubturner]

Everyone on this site is so amazing.  It means so much to me to have someone to talk to about my dog issues and get a non judgemental opinion. I made numerous calls to vets/trainers/animal communicator/behavioralist and they all said that once a dog kills they can never be trusted--which I already knew that.  None of this had been easy and has really just drained me emotionally.  I decided that Gunner and my family/children that frequent my house were my main concern at this point. I know that I could have kept Gypsy confined and only turned her out alone and kept her confined when someone was over--but then I thought what kind of life would that be for her--almost a prison sentence. I did not trust her anymore and she was getting more and more agressive all the time. She would get onto my spot on the couch and when I would ask her to move she would growl and me and if I tried to physically move her she meant business. I dont know how I didnt see the warning signs earlier! Ollie was the alpha dog-and it was actually funny because all he had to do was quiver his lip at Gypsy and she was out of there--not that day though. I love all my dogs and they were all different in their own ways. They all got tons of attention and play time. I sure wish there was something I could have done different so this didnt happen. This has to be a huge adjustment for Gunner being alone. He is a strong boy though and loves me so much-just like I do him. I am keeping a close eye on him. Gypsy passed in my arms friday at 330. It was horrible. There was no struggle or cry--she knew what was happening and went very peaceful. She is buried in a secure box with her favorite blanket and a beautiful cross. I bought some pretty perineals (sp) for Ollie and Gypsys graves. I havent taken Gunner with me to the graves yet but maybe by the wknd he will be ready for that and go with me to plant flowers. I have always been a real animal lover and would go to the ends of the earth for my pet family. I have always felt a real bond with animals more so than people.  I have been hurt so bad by people over the years and my animals had not hurt me-until now.   People say that lifes struggles make a person stronger...they can also make they cold, hard and bitter too. I miss my dogs so so much.         

[evayola]

I cant stop crying for you. I am much like you where I feel my connection with my furry family is much deeper than human connections I should have. Our lives are centered around our animals and I am thinking of them constantly! You cannot place blame on yourself for what has taken place. You were and ARE such a great mom to your pets and I know that will never change. I admire you for the courage you have. Dont remember Ollie and Gypsy for what happened that day but remember them for the days that they played and frollicked and their funny things they did. People say that animals dont have human like qualities but I say they are all dead wrong... pets are funny and actually hilarious; they dont even need to speak to be funny. It could be the way they yell at their favorite toy or the way they bounce when they pick up their ball. Most of all, pets have bigger hearts than any person I have ever met. All they need is love, food, and water. They dont ask you for that new fancy cell phone or $200 pair of jeans (though we have all splurged on something they didnt really need  ) Losing a pet let alone 2 is extremely difficult. You are very lucky that you have such a supportive family that is there for you and Gunner. Take things slow and grieve how you want. If this means crying your eyes out then do it. I think that planting some flowers for them is wonderful. Hopefully you and Gunner can find the strength to make it through this together. Remember what a fighter Gunner is and channel some of that energy into yourself. He needs you to be strong with him and keep him healthy. Stay strong and keep your head up. These dogs entered your life for a reason so cherish them in your heart forever.

Eva







I'm Still Here

Friend, please don't mourn for me
I'm still here, though you don't see.
I'm right by your side each night and day
and within your heart I long to stay.

My body is gone but I'm always near.
I'm everything you feel, see or hear.
My spirit is free, but I'll never depart
as long as you keep me alive in your heart.

I'll never wander out of your sight-
I'm the brightest star on a summer night.
I'll never be beyond your reach-
I'm the warm moist sand when you're at the beach.

I'm the colorful leaves when fall comes around
and the pure white snow that blankets the ground.
I'm the beautiful flowers of which you're so fond,
The clear cool water in a quiet pond.

I'm the first bright blossom you'll see in the spring,
The first warm raindrop that April will bring.
I'm the first ray of light when the sun starts to shine,
and you'll see that the face in the moon is mine.

When you start thinking there's no one to love you,
you can talk to me through the Lord above you.
I'll whisper my answer through the leaves on the trees,
and you'll feel my presence in the soft summer breeze.

I'm the hot salty tears that flow when you weep
and the beautiful dreams that come while you sleep.
I'm the smile you see on a baby's face.
Just look for me, friend, I'm everyplace!

Author Unknown

[carolh]

Hello Painttubturner,

I am SO sorry.  I've been away a few days and just read the sad, sad news.  My 2 cents worth is that you definitely did the right thing.  As you probably know, I volunteer at our local shelter.  We don't bill ourselves as a no kill facility because if an animal comes to us too sick to pull through or so aggressive we can't fix that with behavior training to the point that we're comfortable adopting that animal out, we will euthanize.  (We will keep an animal sometimes for years if s/he isn't in one of those two categoires.) I can tell you that if one of our dogs killed another, we would NOT EVER, under any circumstances, adopt that dog out.  You did everything you needed to do to help your pit bull.  They are often lovely and loving animals.  But some have a gear loose and it sounds as if Gypsy did.  I mourn your loss of both dogs and the trauma to poor Gunner.  But for what it is worth, I so strongly feel you did the right thing.  It is not fair to the community -- either your community at your place or the larger community should you have tried to place the dog elsewhere.  It's a tough decision but you stepped up the plate.
Carol

[Wilson3]

Gwen I am so sorry! lost for words for once... I know that feeling all to well ... having to make that choice ...
Gunner and you have each other and time will heal ...you are a great MOM!
Now and forever! Never forget that!
wilson3

[jefndebbacon]

Hi, so sorry to hear of your loss.  Don't blame yourself, things happen that we cannot explain, especially with complex animal relationships. You did all that you could to keep your animals happy, that's all you can do.  My sincere sympathy. Regards.  Debbie